- meeting points
- big blue button
- could be a coop?
- jailbroken iphones: a joke?
- ghost publishing, some of the profits
- ctzn is broken
- users control it by coding nodes however they can
- users control it by proposing changes to its contract
users control it by forking and merging agoras
- it should be one command essentially
- difference in skill between users means difference in power
power is held by people who host?
- yes, I agree. reducing this power, making it easy to host, is a priority.
- what is stimulating from this vision
- reflecting on the dangers
how did the presentation for the masters go?!
- a lot of the discussion that happened with the jury, in particular a philosopher, was centered around
- "this project seems like it's situated in social design and it's important to read works in this space, concerning in particular to risks"
- western / colonial gestures / white saviour complex
armengol the problem of getting things into shareable state
flancian defaults to sharing all :)
- armengol tries to understand why he wants to say something, what's behind it; to process, filter, etc.
- example problem: where should we meet after this? been thinking about coordination problems; how we relate to digital information.
- thought about rules and principles
if we are planning on sharing a space, imposing rules can be a form of violence; you are limiting and bending other people's identities
- rules for the self converges to free will
- principles are a common understanding of something. they can be used in subsets with a purpose.
a cheatsheet on discourse
is it true
- there is no absolute truth
- reality can be described from many valid subjective perspectives
- relevant principles:
- is it true
- three gates
- flancian defaults to sharing all :)
push armengol principles based on our relationship with information in a digital context
- linkage (connectivity?)
- contract (spatiality?) (commonality?)
- every piece of information has been created at a moment in time
- you can not change the past -- append only
- you can only connect the dots looking backwards
push armengol rules
- we are used to working with markdown. it functions as a common space; it is not just the file, but the associated systems to deal with the files and link them.
what if we have a place where we can work together on these files.
- if we override the words of others, this is invasive. but if we don't agree on a shared context, communication cannot happen.
- aside m prime
- How we relate to information
- Thought connection to Christopher Alexander: systems that allow open-ended organic evolution
ample -- seperation/distinction between modeling and coding
- how to get people to communicate what they need
- m prime
protopian themes will always lead to the word "good"
thinking of it as a "free variable"
ethics as fundmental thing to consider
- always need to incorporate when we think/speak about how a system "should be"
Daniel's (short-) story:
- an overall theme to place here at the start: the back and forth interplay between technology and society
a short choronology
- began studying mulimedia engineering, was attracted to playing with tech
- first study program was a mix of computer science and design, but felt like a frankenstein program
he moved to a design university to continue his study path
- electronic art and digital design
- got involved in touch-pad table project
- this lead to being part of starting an UX design studio
- in context of various projects became more interested the way people were interacting with digital projects/objects rather than on the content of those projects/objects
- moved more into art
- art was inspiring him and wanted to also inspire others
- developed his own form of artistic practice
- stopped working for brands
- moved to the woods with a friend (call them X); X has more tech skill than D
together they started prototyping
- D more on the research part
- X on the tech part
- D did a bootcamp to learn more of the tech tools
- bounced back though to thinking more about the tools / human / interaction (??) side
- trying to find balance
D: comment about how
artists "can do whatever they want"
- society "accepts" this
- D wants to have this freedom; doens't want to be an artist as a "job" or "unique role"
use of artistic techniques / practices as a medium
- is "playting", but in the adult context
- exploring and sharing without restrictions
- social space of creation
- doing experiments
E: association with "carneval"
- Art as a bargain
- being "decoupled" from society ?
- E: wants revolution, not carneval
- artists "can do whatever they want"
D: if he had to use a label (which he doesn't like), it would be that he works with "concepts" ("conceptual artist")
using art as a lens, a way of seeing
D: many people are asking similar questions to the ones we are asking/discussing
- how to have these conversations with groups of people?
E: how to also enable new connection making ?
and how can groups have conversations among themselves (between groups)
- liquid democracy, delegates ?
- and how can groups have conversations among themselves (between groups)
E: info com
E: interested in the spectrum between writing with natural languages and programming
D: broad current interest: information and the digital context
- what are structurings of information that make it useful to me and others?
E: "Context" is a key concept
- key problem in CS and information theory: the question of "state"
a way to think of context:
- an intersection of world models (e.g. between communicating parties), together with
transformations (i.e. ones we do in our minds), such as
- when translating terms in one's mind when someone else is speaking
- tracing paths of thinking (??)
- knowing who one is speaking/listening to and interpreting in this context
some things are able to be externalized as technical tools
- if they are modularizable and can have an "interface" to interact and link up with
- some things are somehow so entangled and enmeshed that it seems impossible to seperate them out from what happens in the mind and externalize them
- reading alexander
- how did we meet?
mathspace vs cyberspace
jonathan-the-utopian as of late, yes; would love to make something
- interactions with technology are often frustrating though
- daniel Q: which kinds of things would you like to build?
jonathan-the-utopian A: liked your sites btw :)
- one minimal tool would like to have: take notes as a group
- open question
- jonathan-the-utopian as of late, yes; would love to make something
definition of protopia
- requires ethics
core questions in mtr master konzept
- jonathan-the-utopian this seems to be leading into vulnerability/psychological explorations
daniel is the key intent here to answer these questions for a small group or to develop a framework for other people?
- both, but first the earlier :)
- branch rational tarot
- branch language games
- branch wittgenstein
- branch lyotard
- branch update the proust questionnaire?
jonathan-the-utopian: what is your background?
- computers + design -> multimedia engineering
- branch merveilles looks like a good fit
- multitouch tablet experiment led to 5 years doing interactive installations
- became more interested in how people behaved than in the actual content of the screens/the technology
moved to art, stopped doing commercial work, moved to the woods
- "i want to inspire others in the same way these people are inspiring me"
- conversations with xavivives, who is more technical, led to a bootcamp
- branch feedback club
daniel-armengol-altayo back at ya
jonathan-the-utopian grew up in california
- swiss and us citizen, moved to switzerland at 18
- decided to study physics, then felt the need to understand mathematics first.
- bachelors + masters in math
- burned out after that, atmosphere at university wasn't great
- took 1 year off
- interested in social processes
- finally started a phd until february 2020
- was in buenos aires, dance tango
- decided not to do a postdoc, wanted to leave academia
applied to a program in zhdk: transdisciplinary studies
- supposed to be connected to mathematical background
- dream art space / event space
- jonathan-the-utopian grew up in california
- daniel-armengol-altayo curious that what society understand by artist is: a person that is free to do whatever they want. art is perceived as a playground.
infrastructure we need
- basic tools to share information in a better way
- something close to a wiki
- branch stoa
- let's write user journeys and compare?
q what are our frustrations?
- a jonathan-the-utopian would wish to have a place like discord/zulip, two level or arbitrary level tool
- a digital space where we can write structured information
- branch agora as a tool to get a communication instance with a given well defined context
- possible projects
- daniel-armengol-altayo main focus is understanding how information processing happens
- A person
- twitter https://twitter.com/armengolaltayo
- github https://github.com/danielarmengolaltayo
- go https://armengol-altayo.com/
- pull armengol
- Founder of vewpoint.
- Used to work on interplanetary mind map.
Interested in the meta problem: https://github.com/vewpoint/meeting-point
- "How do we collect and organize the information about how we collect and organize information when we do not have the tools we need to collect and organize information?"
- Likely interested in agora, agora go links integration: https://danielarmengolaltayo.github.io/hyperlink/capsules/unidirectionality-of-links.html, see also the hyperlink delusion. "As cybernetics would say, it is time to steer the ship, because “if you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading”. It is time to iterate the Web, and therefore, our relationship with it."
- miércoles libres
- estrategia de experimentación
- Fue evolucionando. El sitio actual es una representación de intenciones personales.
- gestor de relaciones en internet entre piezas de información
- una propiedad que hay que contemplar en este espacio
- propiedad intelectual
reificación de links
- un link, entendido como un eje en un grafo, se puede convertir en un nodo.
- idea diferentes artistas contribuyendo piezas con un mismo título
- hierarchy vs heterarchy
- beneficios de la conversación
- diseño de interfaz
the hyperlink delusion
- la forma en la que se plantea el link actualmente no es la forma en la que se concibió inicialmente
- al hyperlink actual le falta simetría
- true colours
- comunismo digital
- materialidad y su influencia en la historia
- semantic web
- un wikilink es un nombre
- agora actions
- Terrible hiato. Mi responsabilidad.
- Por telegram.
Colaboración -- de lo colectivo a lo individual.
- bots de integración entre chat/redes sociales y el agora
- push stoa
estructura jerárquica :(
- Daniel no está de acuerdo.
- Es una decisión impuesta; es una perspectiva válida pero elimina muchas posibilidades.
Yo estoy de acuerdo con Daniel a priori (no lo usé)
- Interesante sin embargo por the hyperlink delusion
paralelo: metáfora del escritorio en computadoras personales
- útil en su momento
- pero limita el tipo de organización posible. ejemplo: un archivo es un objeto físico dentro de la metáfora, por lo que sólo puede estar en un solo lugar a la vez.
- En oposición con dendron, foam o cualquier wiki no estructurado se basa en punteros en cualquier dirección y a cualquier nivel.
- estructura jerárquica :(
Relaciones con la información
- sincronicidad y asincronicidad
- comunidades pequeñas y grandes
- interesante porque esto es como una sincronicidad diferida, yo sentí exactamente lo mismo.
- topic systems to manage information overload and onboard or offboard from conversations
- experiencia: cenas con amigos con un tema que articulaba la conversación.
- topic cuál es la dinámica deseada para las conversaciones en el agora?
- Por telegram.
- Traducción de nodos. Operaciones entre nodos; reminiscente de entornos para programación visual.
Enfoque que prioriza el uso individual.
- Daniel también piensa que conviene apostar por propuestas que construyen socialmente sobre una base individual que ya aporta utilidad.
Markdown como formato
- Block references
- Daniel piensa en un archivo de Markdown por bloque
- Transclusiones permiten consolidar en textos más largos
- -> dendron
Sobre la moralidad de incluir jardines de alrededor de internet si la licencia es compatible
- Si la intención de compartir/ser abierto es explícita no parece problemático
- Pero parece más valioso usar los repositorios para acercarse a esa gente, que podría estar interesada
- Módulos de traducción (como roam2agora) deberían ser programados por cualquier usuario
2018 punto de quiebre: realización sobre cómo el diseño de las tecnonologías que usamos día a día tiene una carga ideológica e impacto en la sociedad.
- Uno no diseña sólo dispositivos o interfaces, sino comportamientos.
- Q: Tristan Harris. Valoración?
- A: Vector. Parte mediática es 10. La narrativa de "social dilemma" se basa en la distopia, busca generar miedo. Las respuestas a "qué podemos hacer" son triviales o vacuas.
- Propuesta: un sistema de ruteo que lleva a la gente de "quiero hacer algo al respecto" a "esta es una lista de cosas que podés hacer dados tus recursos y características".
Uno de los temas que más le interesan: cómo describir un sistema de influencias.
- Modelo: inputs, processing, outputs.
- En modelos colectivos, input-output es social en un ciclo de influencias mutuas.
- Q: memes.
- Q: espacios.
- Manipulación de influencias: redirección de inputs/outputs con entendimiento del sistema.
- Q: ética pública.
- El punto de quiebre tuvo que ver con esto.
- En común: visión utópica. Pero el resultado puede ser negativo para otros aunque la intención sea positiva.
- Q: figura de Sócrates.
- Q: Jonathan.
- Branch: governancia
vewpoint: mind map + world model.
- Realidad privada y realidad compartida.
- Q: hypothes.is
- Universos paralelos. Todos los grafos existen en planos paralelos; interactúan a través de actos comunicativos trasversales.
- Podría buscarse la centralización, consenso. Pero esto genera fragmentación.
- El individuo es el caso base.
- Q: digital garden vs stoa vs agora
Explícito vs implícito
- Lo implícito está optimizado para contextos físicos, tradicionales.
- Q: anti-polarización.
- Escala de valores explícita.
- Q: ética abierta.
- vewpoint: mind map + world model.
Falta cohesión en muchos proyectos porque no está la base ética abierta.
- Q: Protocolo.
- El problema de la coordinación.
- origin story relacionado con sapiens.
- the expanding circle.
- [ ] improve effective altruism node.
- La tecnología es un multiplicador; amplifica nuestro potencial.
- Cómo conectar con las personas adecuadas, generar interés, masa crítica?
- Una: atacar un nicho, gente que está interesada en knowledge graphs.
- Otra: público más general.
- Nodos de comentario sobre cualquier URL.
- wikilinks en todos lados.
- Ejemplo: tiktok. Poder utilizar la música de un cantante popular. Esa pieza de funcionalidad atrae público.
- En vewpoint: the-hyperlink-delusion. Si entendemos la web como piezas de información que están conectadas entre ellas.
- wikilink + bidirectional links
- Q: hypothes.is
- vewpoint: sabía que había que colaborar con la web existente. Cuando uno twittea, una extensión podría indexar ese tweet en una red externa. Y los go links podrían agregar un nivel de indirección en el otro sentido.
- Ver telegram.
- A person.
- I identify as a humanist, rational, liberal, naturalist, secular buddhist.
I practice open source and open ethics as much as I can.
- This agora is, and will always be, free and open source.
- I try to follow an explicit personal social contract that extends and complements that of the agora.
- I try to be open with my way of living as it has an ethical impact. This includes being open about how I spend my time and money.
In my free time I practice utopian thinking; I am an amateur utopian.
- Utopias are also a genre of literature.
- I call my protopia (our protopia!) Flancia, but the name isn't important.
- I intend to bring facets of Flancia into the real world, only as far as they also benefit others, without unilaterally imposing my will.
- website go https://flancia.org
- email email@example.com
- calendly https://calendly.com/flancian
- twitter https://twitter.com/flancian
- fediverse == federation == mastodon
- garden https://github.com/flancian/garden
- github https://github.com/flancian
- matrix @flancian:matrix.org
- telegram @Flancian
- anar.chi.st https://anar.chi.st/Flancian
- ctzn https://firstname.lastname@example.org
- chess https://chess.com/member/flancian
- urbit danfen-socsum (currently unavailable)
- @flancian to see my nodes.
Jonathan the Utopian
- A person.
- swiss mathematician.
- go lorand.earth
- twitter https://twitter.com/l_o_r_a_n_d
- gluten-free, not into dairy.
- Found and pointed out Smart Agora: https://coss.ethz.ch/research/pastprojects/SmartAgora.html
- project utopoi: http://lorand.earth/utopoi/about/
- project https://applied-compositional-thinking.engineering/
- a pattern language for protopian processes
- languages that can serve as bridges between different types of people
presentation mtr master konzept v2021 02 21
- Want feedback on their impressions. Which images, thoughts they receive when the presentation takes place.
- Any red flags/warnings/concerns we should think about?
- Suggestions, materials, ideas that could help.
- project is called protopoi; a working title.
- "it feels different to discuss" -- perhaps discuss should have a direct object? it takes only indirect objects/qualifiers here.
- what are visions of what I want or wish for?
- what are possibilities that I can imagine, for the near future or the present?
- what factors condition and inform my relationship to these questions?
- what are processes by which I can shape my interaction with these questions?
- in which ways can contrsuctive and collaborative first steps grow out of such processes?
- what I want to do
wishes and interests
perhaps start with 'with' and then do 'without'?
- 'being overwhelmed' -> 'overwhelming'? it should match disengaging/disengaged
- limits of our knowledge
- 'bothers me' -> can bother people?
- it would be interesting to insert "flash forwards" here: say which of these topics you'll expound on later in the presentation, which ones you intend to cover within your project later
- systemic organization: nice.
- went a bit fast as a slide
- how to generate a list of this type?
pluralistic conception of protopia
- this slide seems a bit "flat"; it could be more tree-shaped perhaps?
- why is pluralistic separated from the rest by whitespace? unclear
- meaningful seems like it's important and could be more stressed
- beyond a discursive approach
forms and shapes for social processes
- shapes are formed by social agreements and structural constraints could be at the top?
- push bohmian dialogue framework
- push pattern languages
- loose pieces
- how does success look like?
- how can we measure it or evaluate it?
- how to distinguish between something that effects positive change vs something that reinforces problems?
- what are ways that protopian processes could translate into actions / changes?
- what are the tools we can use?
- perhaps start with 'with' and then do 'without'?
- there could have been a bit more meta: go over the structure of the presentation in 30s-60s at the beginning, so the audience knows what to expect.
- jitsi meet
- map of the fediverse
- security through obscurity
- which modeling problems you get excited about?
- how do you pitch your project to people?
a pattern language for protopian processes
- comment from a friend: it might be wrong metodologically to 'fix' the tool to be a pattern language at this stage, there are many kinds of language
- how to organize todo.
- test annotation failover
- decide file/note hosting
- Enjoying the week off!
- universal basic income
- personal life
- arcades project
- beautiful light today, perhaps because of the sand storm
- day job is looking better -- course sessions over!
- graphical calculus / string diagrams in category theory
- group activities
- protopoi org
- Helping a friend move today.
- Working hard on setting up the curriculum for the course at ETH
- jonathan want to start building a website: protopoi space
- jonathan platform, place where one can link to different projects. root node for art school project.
- flancian a root node for all protopias everywhere :)
what is protopoi?
flancian the space of all protopias?
- an index
- jonathan a vision of how the world could be?
- flancian the space of all protopias?
- jonathan the project is focused on a process for imagining and exploring protopoi
- a repository of projects following a theme or vision.
push christopher alexander reading group
- quote We will read from some works of the architect and design theorist Christopher Alexander, with the aim of getting to know the ideas and philosophy associated with the influential book "A pattern language". The term "pattern language" describes an approach to (architectural) design which identifies and abstracts elementary yet ubiquitous design problems, along with solutions for them, and assembles them into a sort of alphabet to be used as a toolbox.
- quote This methodology is embedded in a design philosophy which attempts to put humans' needs, desires, and "aliveness" at the center of the design process. Although coming from architecture and urban design, Christopher Alexander's work has aspects which are of a very general, conceptual nature. It has been an influence in other fields, such as software design and music, and perhaps this module can be an opportunity to explore possible inspirations within one's own disciplinary context.
- quote Proposed readings: excerpts from the following books by Christopher Alexander: "Notes on the Synthesis of Form"; "The Timeless Way of Building"; "A Pattern Language". Possibly also additional materials.
- the timeless way of building
- a pattern language
- notes on the synthesis of form
- feedback on priorities with agora feature request and agora plan
- Super cool that you have a blackboard in your room!
- VC is very inclusive and we can always have this, no matter where we live.
What have you been working on?
jonathan working a lot on the online course at eth. Sort of managing the project almost.
- flancian do you feel like you are learning at the day job?
- yep. Experimenting with new mediums for online teaching.
- category theory for engineers
- jonathan working a lot on the online course at eth. Sort of managing the project almost.
- world models
agora for utopia
- missing devices
flancian set of m prime
jonathan mathematical + computational approach to the world
- on the one hand it seems it will always miss something, as life is so rich
- on the other hand it seems it could be valuable
- at the beginning it seems it could be unpractical, but looking around similar approaches are around
- it is very costly to input lots of information, and it requires a lot of time
- flancian note that the value/cost function is undefined; this is a procedure to find paths/tunnels
- jonathan mathematical + computational approach to the world
- flancian set of m prime
- robin krom
- reading group
- bug report agora plan https://anagora.org/node/reading-goup---christopher-alexander renders badly
- Jonathan thinks utopoi is not persistent; it will live for a while and then die, like an organism. But this applies mostly to the physical part; the digital part might endure.
- Knowing it has an end date actually feels nice.
- likes that he critized his own work -- I agree.
- part of his later work is about deconstructing his earlier work.
- "philosophy is the art of making questions enjoyable"
- "feeling like a mashed potato"
- work is getting stressful due to an online course coming up in January.