📕 subnode [[@email@example.com/flancia meet]] in 📚 node [[flancia-meet]]
- We meet best-effort every Saturday. when utc??
- This is where we could have community maintained notes :)
- attending: j0lms flancian
- coffee in venezuela
- venezuelan architecture
- work search as it interacts with identity
- how would our Wikipedia article look like? :)
- "la conclusión lógica del individualismo es el marxismo"
- marx sobre max stirner
- grew up with an anti-marxist skew due to family influences
- first read marx as a kind of anti-bible (hiding), discovered something completely unexpected
- I am a bit self promotional
node club (as per the above)
- j0lms interesting! to explore: how does this fit into the controversy between anarchism and marxism
- the notion of utopia is intertwined with the abolition of the state (we might not be able to abolish the state without going through utopian thinking)
- vs zizek
liberalism vs totalitarism
- totalitarianism doesn't exist
- if it existed, tech corporations would be the most successful totalitarian entities in the history of human kind.
- controversial argument:
- #push santiago armesilla "los anarcocapitalistas son socialistas"
#push hugo chavez
- norberto ceresole, anti semitic
- enrique krauze
- phoenix wright
- laclau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernesto_Laclau
- utopian socialism
for this weekend:
- add oauth
- opt in writes
- open letters
- attending: vera flancian
- attended drum and bass show
- switched to wiki vim
- starting therapy on Tuesday
- socialized healthcare
- sort of like solid, it's an ecosystem but it feels empty for now
- webcrate is an app in deta
- a "cloud computer"
- is it open source? yes, it seems: https://github.com/deta
- berlin based
- bouncepaw asks: what is bluesky?
- krita gimp blender [[open source art
- I want to checkout adx
- webcrate deta
- 40 rubles for bread
- on the wiki approach to interconnection
- met someone, a missionary, invited to join a group.
- attending: vera bouncepaw j0lms flancian
- back in hometown for holidays (1st May, 9th May)
- living in the dorm in the uni
- the internet as a federation of universities in the beginning (plus darpa)
- if not the internet, an alternative would've conquered the world instead
- made a decision not to pursue a degree
- #push national open university, distance learning
- the problem that they were trying to solve is already solved by the internet
- how to find an incentive structure to study hard subjects which require an academic environment or strong motivations
- very good insight
- #q what's the downside with just continuing with the degree and finishing it?
- #a the degree is just very long, and the university has taken a hit due to covid
- flancian something between open university and world university, or a self-assembled distributed study groups?
already have a bachelors in music (major in music, minor in composition)
- that's cool!
- looks like:
- post academic ethos
flancian can we help with anything?
j0lms would like to look for a job, something more fulfilling, currently doing essentially mechanical turk level
- would like to exploit the cognitive capital they have
part time work seems ideal
- bouncepaw know a guy who works around five hours a week (!), that's enough to live on and then work on personal projects
- j0lms would like to look for a job, something more fulfilling, currently doing essentially mechanical turk level
- what are we working on?
- got a FR in March for an html attribute
added orphans feature: hyphae which have no backlinks
- https://melanocarpa.lesarbr.es/orphans is an example
- obsidian has this
flancian "six degrees of" would also be interesting
- other interesting stuff: nodes in common between users; that in the nth degree
flancian how many mycorrhiza instances are there out there?
- bouncepaw would estimate ~tens of instances
- flancian any way to coordinate multi user edits, have a dialogue?
- what if we uncached the render of the node and kept stuff that gets all subnodes on the system every time
- sqlite caching
- agora2 experiment
- hashtags support
- shamanic agora
- three node agora
- building bridges blog post
- social coop
- perhaps I should set up to immers space
- set up code onboarding session for next weekend
- very cool drawing!
- immers space
- attending: j0lms protopian vera flancia
- agenda follows (first few items, then we can freestyle)
- jitsi UI
- immers space -- we could test next time
- #push gun
- two repos
- flancian will review them today, thank you!
#push collaboration commons
- interesting that they say to avoid politics -- but also understandable
- protopian they seem interested in solving coordination problems
j0lms interested on opinions on this article: https://www.otherlife.co/pkm/
- this reads antagonistic at once, but in the end it could be an argument for the agora
the tldr: pkm is a fad, actually has a great componet of status signaling
- but the Agora hijacks this self-interested pursuit for a pro social goal
- j0lms note that this aspect (towards collaboration) is what sold me on the agora
- j0lms justin seems to think that intellectuals belong to a different class (paraphrasing)
- flancian unsure urbit is "worth it" overall, will read all this though!
flancian isn't activitypub enough as a base for coordination/governance? to put it some way.
- j0lms venezuelan diaspora in mastodon example
- j0lms it would be nice to have a code walkthrough to onboard contributors to agora and moa
elon buying twitter -> mastodon adoption uptick
- bluesky is independent
- attending: j0lms protopian flancian :)
- away on holidays this upcoming week! in spain :)
- moving tomorrow, but nearby so not as stressful as it could be
- #push shamanic coders guild
- was great, but maybe even better after the fact (stayed in austin for a bit with others)
- 5 people seemed to be about the sweet spot for conversations to really shine
- connecting with people
- building connections
- work comes after that, building on trust
- interintellect salon
- fixed garden import \o/
- #push visakanv
- how to read a book
- #push impro
- to read list
- interested in the network state / how to start a country by balaji srinivasan
- Will/protopian says: https://discord.com/channels/903634676500017263/962930903619862548/963290301483585576
tweets from series
- attending: flancian :)
- attending: bouncepaw flancian
university in russia
- can opt into midterms to get better scores (and of course more learning), depending on the teacher
- scholarships require very good grades and are only very few
- getting a scholarship after the beginning of the career is hard but it happens
- a year of education in kazan federal university costs 1400 EUR
- 10 EUR/month for dorm
- 350 EUR/month is a normal "regular worker" salary
- 1300 EUR/month would be a normal IT salary
- four years bachelors
- two years masters
curiosity: would you work for a faang or a company in that tier?
- flancian works in google
- bouncepaw is unsure, but will likely to agree, if it comes to that
- IT people are lucky
how to use our luck with high leverage
option: we could make our own companies
Flancia, Ltd.; Flancia Corporation
- nah, it could be reasonable but not what we're after :)
- transjovian council by alex schroeder
start a cooperative
- start a collective
- do altruism
- write a book / collect and spread memes
start a religion / cult
sikhs help people, and wear turbans that let others know who they are
- wearing something/showing something to communicate values/goals seems like a good idea a priori
- but it could lead to oppression. Everyone wears something specific, and someone does not, the latter is a freak
- sikhs help people, and wear turbans that let others know who they are
- buddhist schools
start a club
- see also geek code, glider symbol
- http://www.catb.org/hacker-emblem/ esr
mushroom cult symbol in username: 🍄
- and/or wikilinks :)
bouncepaw likes organic metaphors, thought of silkworm club in 2021 because of silkworms producing silk, and silk feeling like a good metaphor for code
- the club never happened as of 2022-03-19
"what is the point of joining an open source club -- the source is already open"
- you could lampshade this concern and make it into the pitch for the club
- could help the community migrate off centralized tools like github? or at least mirror
- Flancia, Ltd.; Flancia Corporation
- option: we could make our own companies
- digital groups are a new kind of groups. Historically speaking, they are the newest+youngest, despite being ~50 yo.
golang package names have repo urls in them
workaround with redirections hosted on own domain name?
- a 'centralized' (but community owned) platform that offers redirects as a service might be helpful, make this
- does it serve an HTTP redirect or proxy?
- workaround with redirections hosted on own domain name?
- git push to all giteas
- twin pages by bill seitz
- Welcome to March!
attending: vera flancian
- smarter conflict resolution/merges?
- git rerere
got some code done on agora-ui -> gitea
- Currently writing to gitea api from agora-ui
oauth tokens from signin flow not authenticating
- using personal app tokens in the meantime
- can be generated in https://git.anagora.org/user/settings/applications
added settings to settings page for app token and repo name since user -> repo relationship is one to many
- refactoring settings page as well
- editor supports creating new nodes
pr for fixing assets
- merging now :)
- got some code done on agora-ui -> gitea
agora matrix bot
- now writes, will probably stop working on it for a bit
- maubot is cool but I haven't figured out the debugging flow for bot plugins, it's a bit hacky for now
- matrix alternative instances
- agora matrix bot
- checksums -> zooko wilcox
- john perry barlow
- attending vera, flancian
nazi harassment in the fediverse
- blocklist thread you might be interested in: https://social.coop/web/statuses/107784596903671329
- idea could the agora or something like it help people agree on blocklists more dynamically, effectively, compassionately?
New meeting time?
- This one's a keeper
Then for Pacific time it could be:
- perhaps not great because it might interfere with personal life more often? but it could work
- perhaps not great because it's almost monday and that is a bit depressing sometimes? but it could be uplifting :)
- could be cool, in particular when flancian takes wednesdays off!
- saturday afternoon
- #push do
- How does everyone like jitsi vs something else (not google meet)
- how is zebras going?
- didn't get much done since last time; dealing with life
planning on making commit to agora-api to handle
git file change stuff
- ostensibly this will accept a POST/PUT request to api with user/node/data combo and then write changes to disk and then create a git commit with those changes and push to gitea server using users logged in credentials
- I don't like the way that gitea handles oauth login from mastodon, you have to hard code each allowed host manually which I'm not a fan of. There are plenty of mastodon api apps that let you sign in via any mastodon server, I'm tempted to create our own oauth layer that talks to gitea behind the scenes
adding text editor to agora website for logged in users
- planning on using tinyMCE might use something else depending
- this will talk to the code in agora-api that I mentioned above on submit
- git file change stuff
- same here! :)
- my goal is to just go through the todo list I built last week :)
- agora bot matrix
- also fix gitea (certificate)
- look into git lfs
#push sign in button
- just add a sign in button :)
- by default it redirects to a 'non implemented yet' page with a description :)
- perhaps then it only lets you sign in with mastodon, then we add others
- look into moa auth code
- attending vera, bouncepaw, flancian, will, neil
- building on the stoa
- git write flow
- agora api
- gitea oauth
- we will commit to user repos if they are logged in
- flancian happy to work on this with you if you need anything
- flancian perhaps we could release the oauth sign in first?
- once we have this, we could finally start dumping social data for users if they want it
- you get your own personal data store
is logseq doing this?
- they used to, but apparently this is now removed or at least not front and center
- they may or may not use git for their planned hosting, actually we should check with them
ranking in the agora
- reddit-style upvoting?
- action called uprank
- could do it in the stoa
stoa could be a log, like an action log
- various actions could be available
- works like a replay log
e.g. marx should autopull karl marx
- could have a persistent pull button, so next time agora knows to pull it
- e.g. like RT on Twitter started as a user text based action that twitter then codified?
stoa can provide a nice meta layer on top of people's digital gardens
- e.g. use pull in the stoa without having to use it in own garden
it would work on trust on people not gaming the stoa
- trust based systems can be a good thing
- e.g. look at problems of trustless blockchain projects
- if instances are kept small, this is OK
- flancian has been thinking about browse as
agora stoa is fully open...
- moderation policy needed
- anyone can edit stoa, what if e.g. end up with fascist subnode
difference between authentication and authorization
- ‘authentication is boolean, authorization is a list of permissions’ — vera
- could possibly have two stoas? one open to public, one more limited to agora users
- semi-permeable membrane in reference to commons. some boundaries are OK (needed in fact) to not ruin a commons.
reddy2go said we need bouncers and buddhas in communities
- bouncers repel violence
- buddhas try to foster community
neil likes the model of federation in mastodon -- you have a local timeline, and you can prioritize trusted instances you federate with -- but there's always the federated timeline, and also you have blocklists
- e.g. poa.st and social.coop
- blockchain was a common blocklist project but didn't seem actively maintained
- has a well maintained list but it seemed to have potential for false positives
- will going back to browse as, you could have the concept of adopting someone else's blocklist to trial it/help debug
- fascist vs shitposter
building "consensus" and group decision-making
- proposal and asking if anybody strongly disagrees
- zebras are experimenting with ~five types of governance tools
- consensus vs. consent
- upranking as a case study
- agora bot
- if you uprank something in your garden, maybe that means 'send it above me'
or you might be saying that these two subnodes are related
- one is a comment or annotation of another?
- push to subnode?
possible distinction between garden, stream, comment nodes
- relates to agora.yaml
- or perhaps it could be a star or a bookmark
- relative ranking is important
neil liked how ctzn did it -- you could apply any action to any resource
- it could include emojis, but also arbitrary text comments that worked somewhat as tags
- you could then perhaps choose to 'show me this node ranked by this particular user-defined ranking'
neil takeaway: let's go into the stoa and start adding relationships between subnodes
- which actions, relationships, ranking of things will be converge on?
- vera one thing we can do: write down which one we uprank/like and why
metanode or supernode
- a local graph of nodes/subnodes (where the link may not just be that they are defined by a shared title)
- e.g. random/6
- compatibility with mycomarkup?
- attending vera, flancian, neil
- pandemic relationships
- the great resignation
fully automated luxury gay space communism
- fearing a warring warlords future instead
- why did it fizzle out?
- anarchist cybernetics
- anarchists in the french revolution
- power consumption is not the problem, fossil fuels are the problem
what can our role be?
- sharing knowledge
- quorum based, low energy consumption
- very interesting field currently: polarized, but with an emerging middle way
- nathan schneider has been talking about the possibilities for decentralized governance
- there is a proposal system
- you send crypto to an irretrievable address
- you can burn or stake crypto to add or support a proposal
- it would be cool if people supporting a proposal could have their support be weighted by e.g. degree of previous collaboration
- disco as a lefty use of blockchain governance structures
- libertarian seems to have been coopted by the right -- is it "worth" trying to rehabilitate it?
which labels do you use when in conversation with strangers if the topic comes up?
- try to avoid monolithic labels
- directory of coop alternatives?
- #push commons
- attending: bouncepaw, vera
- http://www.wosonhj.com journals here
- bouncepaw is writing backing up scripts for his wikis
- github as a cloud
- fantastic fungi -- highly recommend vera
- solarpunk, a solarpunk manifesto
tour bus stop
- maybe have agora version?
- web clipper
- raku, used to be called perl 6. A fun language
- attending: bouncepaw flancian (9AM) and vera joined later
- will probably do another one of these later in the day
bouncepaw issue with deep linking into a particular instance of these meetings notes
- push can be a solution (see above)
could also have a button with 'create stoa' that does node + timestamp concat (for example)
- community wiki meets: https://communitywiki.org/wiki/WikiMeet
- alex schroeder is the creator of:
mycorrhiza now has a 5s delay load in robots.txt
- add robots.txt delay
- #push hypha: not hyphas but hyphae
rename wikilink to hyphalink discussion 3 months ago
- brought up by neil
- mycorrhiza has both page and hypha concepts:
- how to determine scope for a #push (open problem in an Agora, beyond agora protocol limited implementation)
- heading/paragraph problem / anchoring problem
anchoring algorithms to deep link or transclude fragments of text from a note
- could what hypothesis do be reused to be resilient to edits?
a special anchor element:
- need to fix something in mycorrhiza
it seems we could agree on how to generate anchor ids for blocks?
- also, how to regenerate/update anchor ids on updates
- https://github.com/flancian/agora-server/issues/38 discussion will be held here
- example things that could work :)
- here flancian, bouncepaw, neil, will
- flag for esperanto on bouncepaw's wall
- bouncepaw https://pad.riseup.net
bouncepaw community wiki
push meatball wiki
- bus stops http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/TourBusMap
- you can add your wiki to the list
- make sure it loops back to the beginning :)
- like a webring
- agora could have something similar for digital gardens
- does anything have a tree rather than sequential?
- tour bus stop does have multiple routes - and you can change stops
- push meatball wiki
- rings and discovery
- aspects of the anagora
- agora search ranking - can work implicitly via push pull
- mycorrhiza wiki - works at a block content level
- is push based transclusion an idea that nelson discussed?
- (pull for sure)
- bouncepaw read literary machines
- xanadu - maggie appleton describes as a set of patterns that are succeeding rather than a failed software project
push inspired by pubsub
- you watch for changes and then push this update out
- pubsub topics map to agora nodes
- with push you have no control over how it might be displayed on the other end
- on the receiving end you could ack (or pull?) to specify how the push gets handled
- doubleloop webmentions work like this -- the receiving side has control on how to handle/process
- activity pub inbox/outbox model
- tags and wikilinks
- push cartographist
- push gingko
- cortex browser
- original browser from tim berners lee - each new page was a new window
original netscape browser had backlinks, but via a central server
- we have similar services now, but none are built-in to browsers, e/g https://ahrefs.com/backlink-checker
- bouncepaw federation is an extension of the core idea of interwiki linking
- flancian is interwiki linking a type of federation?
- bouncepaw don´t think so as interwiki linking doesn´t request any data of the target
- do you know of protocols to federate wiki apart from fedwiki?
- mycomarkup can be generated from websites
- project underlay
- should we have mycorrhiza as a stoa?
- single sign on -- could sites that trust each other share oauth credentials?
- Turned out to be complex for mycorrhiza: https://github.com/bouncepaw/mycorrhiza/issues/74
It may look simple from the surface, but there might be some hidden gotchas that'll ruin the whole security model.
- indieauth https://indieauth.net/ https://indieauth.com
- solid project https://solidproject.org
- telegram has an authentication service
- matrix-based auth? Gotta read the spec: learn about how identities and auth are done
- open graph is widely used for link previews in social media
⭕ wormhole to [[hypha#coop]] built by an Agora user
⭕ wormhole to [[hypha/coop]] built by an Agora user