→ node [[distributed-press-2021-05-19]]
  • an instance of [[distributed press]]
  • [[benedict lau]]
  • [[paul frazee]]
    • [[distributed vs federated]]
      • a bit stuck here currently
      • the way to conceptualize
      • [[federated]] ~ [[mastodon]]
      • [[distributed]] ~ [[ipfs]] mesh
        • completely open system, if you're in the mesh you're in
        • technologically, user experience wise is great
        • trying to figure out how to deal with the [[cost]] structure
        • in the case of social media, you're making your own twitter
        • how do you get economies of scale worked in there?
          • [[filecoin]]?
          • [[gateway model]]
            • ipfs gateway: there is more than one of them
          • if your mesh contains social data, you get a social network
        • [[ben]] what are the costs involved?
          • [[paul]] unsure but they all seem associated to a side business so far
        • advantages
          • ?
          • serverless clients are possible
        • [[ben]]
          • less well maintained gateways become issues for user experience
          • censorship
          • [[guo]] yes, gateways become a centralized point
            • gateway should be a backup after serverless client
          • [[paul frazee]]
            • spent 6-8 months working on a social network back in [[beaker]]
            • some stuff that stops you:
              • links that are a new protocol are an issue
              • ux killer on stuff like twitter
            • didn't have a push messaging system back then
              • didn't want to have to deal with spam
              • ux killer: no notifications unless mutual follow
            • try to bring in positive properties of the system
          • [[flancian]]
          • [[ben]]
  • [[guo]]
    • content feed + social graph as a distributed publication and social network
    • people can store their content feed and social graph anywhere
    • user control their data
    • search
    • separating storage and aggregation
  • [[paul frazee]]
    • database vs datamesh
    • federation puts application logic in the wire protocol
  • [[flancian]]
    • [[datamesh]] should probably be treated as a commons
  • [[guo]]
  • [[flancian]]
    • [[paul]]
      • how do you end up in a situation in which governance is required?
    • [[guo]]
      • datamesh seems like it does not require governance, but the aggregator does
      • (interlay vs overlay?)
      • [[ben]] aether (sp?)
        • distributed reddit
        • distributed moderation
        • liquid democracy-like
      • [[ben]]
        • we need to agree on:
          • schemas
          • distribution protocol
          • aggregator censorship
        • what happens when your computer ends up hosting hate speech?
          • you can stop the flow in the mesh and that applies negative evolutionary pressure
        • [[paul]] aether does [[default allow]], I do [[default deny]]
      • [[flancian]]
        • minimum exchange format
      • [[guo]]
        • choice of markdown vs html
        • chose html over markdown, it supports arbitrary media
        • [[encryption]]
          • exclusive content
          • hard to define protocol-level encryption standard
          • bake the encryption message into the html
      • [[ben]] decided to first publish/store things as html
        • most people want to have something ready-to-publish
        • but a consumption pattern arises: you copy/paste whole articles
        • on the dweb there is an opportunity for this as we can publish different formats of the same concept
        • get content in more than one format
      • [[paul]]
        • [[schemas]] in general
        • I would describe what you were discussing as "rich text format"
        • orthogonal to schemas
          • fighting with schemas since [[secure scuttlebutt]]
          • pissed off [[rdf]] people
          • reached https://ctzn.network/comment
          • scuttlebutt: did not impose any schema obligations; disastrous approach
          • [[unwalled gardens]]: enforced types
          • [[ctzn network]]: urls identifying the schemas with a machine readable format
            • rejects messages that don't comply with the schema
            • believe in this approach
              • if you don't, you end up in the tragedy of the commons or failure in collective action (scuttlebutt)
                • compatibility with the schema dictates everything you can do
                • you have a feature, you add a dependency
                • had a post type
                  • would be nice if you have a topic
                  • if you are not subscribed to [[cats]], you won't see it
                  • but you can't rely on it as many clients won't support it
                  • you might end up spamming old clients
                  • [[fatal ambiguity]]
                  • once you see this, schemas start seeming risky to change
                  • you can do extension points, but would suggest against
                • current approach:
                  • well defined schemas
                  • people can determine their own schemas
                  • control the [[ctzn network]] schemas
                  • can have extension tables
                • [[ben]]
                  • feel like [[scuttlebutt]] has a schema, otherwise you couldn't have more than one client
                  • what it lacked, it seems, is versioning?
                  • how do you manage upgrades?
                • [[paul]] the problem is multiple clients controlled by different devs
                • [[flancian]] what do you really need for features -- usually you'd want to have the minimum minimum schema requirements?
                • [[paul frazee]]
                  • [[web mentions]]: exploring now
                  • [[unwalled garden]]
                  • suppose you want to have the ability to have mentions in your comments
                    • you have to keep parsing for entities if you store text or text-like
                    • using [[hyperbee]] in [[ctzn]]
                      • it can list directories or keyspaces in order
                      • more like a database technology
                  • for distributed press/unwalled garden: file oriented approach can work over http
              • [[guo]] in the comments problem, who owns the post data?
                • the post it's on could 'own' it
                • the [[comment]] writer could own it
                  • this seems safer?
              • [[fauno]]
                • if we allow for comments, who is responsible for keeping them? hateful comments/censorship/etc
                • [[webmentions]]: fascist websites pinging you
                • people don't have time to moderate
              • [[ben]] same thing is seen in wordpress
              • [[fauno]] web mentions and how to keep bad parties out
              • [[flancian]] how will moderation work in [[ctzn network]]?

Attendees

[[ipfs gateways]]

  • [[Paul Frazee]]
    • say you're [[twitter]], 1000 users.
    • 1000 users only one using service but having to pay for storage/bandwidth of 1000 poor scaling properties
    • gateway not feasible model
    • what are the costs
    • magic of the mesh
    • serverless clients participate in network
  • [[guo]]
    • gateways become the point of failure in a distributed network
  • [[flancian]]
    • subsidies gateway not for profit

[[beaker]]

  • social network on beaker
  • got discouraged with social networks
    • came back
  • people wanna be able to share around links
  • didn't have push messaging system
  • take advantage of social graph
  • ux killer
    • people expect to get notifcations from people
    • people need to follow out of band
    • limited push message
    • aggregator service notifications
      • really close to running gateway, running a service
      • let's just use services
      • take your data and move to other "place"

[[minimum viable exchange format]]

[[commons mesh]]

  • how do you end up in a situation where [[governance]] is required
  • what are defaults
  • sign up for first time, what's being suggested

[[fatal ambiguity]]

⟴ stoa (shared document) at doc.anagora.org/distributed-press-2021-05-19
⥱ context
⥅ context node [[2021-05-19]]
⥅ context node [[aggregator]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[beaker]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[beaker]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[beaker-browser]]
⥅ context node [[ben]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[ben]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[ben]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[ben]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[ben]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[ben]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[ben]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[ben]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[ben]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[benedict-lau]]
⥅ context node [[benhylau]]
⥅ context node [[cats]]
⥅ context node [[comment]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[commons-mesh]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[cost]]
⥅ context node [[ctzn]]
⥅ context node [[ctzn-network]]
⥅ context node [[dat]]
⥅ context node [[data-mesh]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[database]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[datamesh]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[default-allow]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[default-deny]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[distributed]]
⥅ context node [[distributed-press]]
⥅ context node [[distributed-vs-federated]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[encryption]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[fatal-ambiguity]]
⥅ context node [[fauno]]
⥅ context node [[federated]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[filecoin]]
⥅ context node [[flancian]]
⥅ context node [[gateway-model]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[gossip-protocol]]
⥅ context node [[governance]]
⥅ context node [[governance-of-the-commons]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[guo]]
⥅ context node [[hyperbee]]
⥅ context node [[hypercore]]
⥅ context node [[hypercore-model]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[hypercore-protocol]]
⥅ context node [[hypha]]
⥅ context node [[indieweb]]
⥅ context node [[ipfs]]
⥅ context node [[ipfs-gateways]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[mastodon]]
⥅ context node [[mdx]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[metcalfes-law]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[microformats]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[microformats]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[minimal-social-graph]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[minimum-viable-exchange-format]]
⥅ context node [[paul]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[paul]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[paul]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[paul]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[paul]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[paul]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[paul]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[paul-frazee]]
⥅ context node [[pubs]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[rdf]]
⥅ context node [[reputation-systems]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[rss]]
⥅ context node [[schemas]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[scuttlebutt]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[scuttlebutt]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[secure-scuttlebut]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[secure-scuttlebutt]]
⥅ context node [[store-and-forward-relays]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[subjective-moderation]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[sutty]]
⥅ context node [[twitter]]
⥅ context node [[underlay-project]]
⥅ context node [[unwalled-garden]]
⥅ context node [[unwalled-gardens]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[vera]]
⥅ context node [[web-mentions]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[web-mentions]] (empty)
⥅ context node [[webmentions]]