📚 node [[fellowship of the link]]
Fellowship of the Link on June 9, 2022
Attendees
[[chris aldrich]] [[flancian]] [[jerry michalski]] [[diego]]
Inviting others
2022-06-24
- Attending: [[jerry michalski]] [[chris aldrich]] [[flancian]]
-
Discussion of [[go links]]
- Demo in anagora.org :)
- [[go/fotl/chat]] and [[go/fellowship of the link/chat]] both now work
-
Time?
-
11am Pacific on Fridays?
- Could conflict with date nights in Europe :)
-
[[11am Pacific on Thursdays]]?
- Let's try this!
-
11am Pacific on Fridays?
-
[[shared resources]]
-
[[chris aldrich]] putting up something in the site
- add a go link :)
- here's what we're doing, here's where we're going, here is how to join
- let's use [[chat]] for coordinating
-
[[chris aldrich]] putting up something in the site
-
what's a high leverage topic for the three of us?
- [[chris aldrich]] what's pareto optimal/the 20% we could tackle first?
- [[jerry michalski]] has been working on a [[shared vision]]
- [[flancian]] [[2025]]
-
[[jerry michalski]]
- how to build a "webring" for meetings, documents about projects
-
[[obsidian]] with [[excalidraw]] done by a friend
- diagrams.net is also good
-
[[open global mind]] ~ [[ogm]]
- [[flotilla]] -> [[federation]]
- what do you see from the top of your mast?
- [[multi plane camera]]
- [[map of the future]] ~ [[mosaic]]
- [[flancian]] [[agora]] plus iframes for mvp of the above
-
[[chris aldrich]] standard based, using each item as a block
- [[oembed]]?
- tools tends to target one tool only, lots of duplication
-
[[activitypub]]
-
[[chris aldrich]] over designed it, over specified it, few people understand it completely
- [[aaron parecki]]
-
[[mastodon]] as the de facto standard rather than ActivityPub itself
- we can bridge to mastodon or pleroma, do not need to reimplement it
-
what about [[rss]]?
- [[jerry michalski]] does this not break transclusion?
- How can we prevent the unproductive RSS/Atom wars of the early blogosphere?
-
[[chris aldrich]] over designed it, over specified it, few people understand it completely
-
[[jerry michalski]] [[least common denominator]]
- problem or potential?
- [[tbl]] simplified [[sgml]] and made it break gracefully
- [[resiliency]]
-
[[cory doctorow]] on the [[tragedy of the commons]]
- [[modus operandi]] and [[throughput]] amazing
- [[chris aldrich]]: cory has a [[commonplace book]] essentially, see https://pluralistic.net/2021/01/13/two-decades/
- [[flancian]]
-
from chat unprocesssed
- Jerry Michalski dice:transclusion
- Chris Aldrich dice:How to create a Read Fork Write Merge Web?
2022-06-17
- Attending: [[jerry michalski]], [[metasj]], [[mathew lowry]], [[flancian]]
- (joined late) (chat history)
- [[jerry michalski]] and [[mathew]] on [[medium]]
-
#push [[mathew lowry's chapter]] for [[pkg book]]
- https://mathewlowry.medium.com/from-personal-to-social-knowledge-graphs-a-vision-statement-draft-fc86ef4f7022
- outsourcing commenting to [[hypothesis]]
- [[web annotation standard]]
- [[activitypub]]
- [[activitypub]] to [[web annotation standard]] bridge?
- [[jerry michalski]] [[nuggets]] in the [[big fungus]]
- [[mathew lowry]] [[nuggets]] as cross-linked executive summaries
-
[[fediverse]]
- [[jerry michalski]] what's the simplest possible example to get going on comments and annotations on the fediverse?
-
what would be the mvp?
- [[mastodon]] server?
- [[mattermost]] channel
- how to [[interlink]]?
-
[[metasj]]
- challenge: take a [[global commons]] that you care aobut, and scope out its potential full extent
-
[[jerry michalski]] take a [[pattern language]] that already exist
-
(lists three)
- [[liberating structures]]
- Peeragogy
- Wise Democracy Pattern Language
- chat bots: [[five whys]]
- ...and turn them into [[commons]] shared materials and instrument
- [[pattern languages]] == [[distilled wisdom]]
- from patterns to praxis
- a platform for pattern languages: this was tried on top of [[mediawiki]] [[smw]]
-
[[instrumentalize]] > [[instrument]]?
- Integrate
- Arborize
- what's the verb when mycelium sprouts a mushroom?
- [[fruiting]]
- [[metasj]] tried to put [[ward]] and [[alexander]] in contact to discuss agreeing on a platform
- [[jerry michalski]] [[engelbart]] struggled with this
- a strategy to make everybody facilitating facilitations a better facilitator
- leads to a global memory artifact
-
(lists three)
-
[[mathew]] what's the end goal of this envisioning/scoping exercise?
-
[[metasj]] a couple of measures of scope:
- proportion of total human societal interaction affected in a given year
- [[jerry michalski]] (ways of measuring global impact)
- empowering people
-
[[metasj]] a couple of measures of scope:
-
[[jerry michalski]] [[applause in sign language]]
- used in [[occupy movement]]
- other gestures used: disagree, blocking, speak louder
- [[flancian]] related: [[free, fair and alive]] [[anarchist cybernetics]]
-
[[reading club]] on [[dawn of everything]] in [[ogm]]
- -> [[node club]]
-
[[mathew lowry]]
- tools to better capture knowledge produced from conferences/workshops and share it with the world
-
[[jerry michalski]] [[idea commons]]
- pastors.com is where a lot of evangelical preachers get what they say on Sundays (!)
- open source sermon central
-
[[flancian]]
- pattern repository, people router
- alternatives
-
[[flancian]]
-
[[counter anti disintermediation]] leading back to distributed systems and liquid democracy
- maybe could yield a metric w.r.t. degree of distrubution of structures of power
-
[[complementary cognitive artifacts]]
- maybe yields a metric w.r.t. resiliency to losing
- composed effects of higher efficiency in cooperation, [[coordination problem]]
-
[[counter anti disintermediation]] leading back to distributed systems and liquid democracy
-
chat
- unschooling, regenerative agriculture, traffic calming...
- ice:bootstrapping: ways to make people vectors for a new approach
- patterning: process for helping people abstract their work to its full potential extent
- which will usually overlap w/ the full-extent of other existing/smaller patterns
- matchmaking: people who could work on the same vectors
- https://www.clearerthinking.org/
-
[[action items]]
-
[[flancian]]
- upload past recording to youtube
-
[[flancian]]
-
[[metasj]] and [[flancian]] 1:1
- [[building bridges]], [[wormholes]]
- [[workshops]] and [[facilitating]] of world building
- [[future casting]] -> [[incepting]]
-
[[wikimedia]] + [[web annotations]]
- [[diego de la hera]]
- there is an extension that makes them worked well together
- how does the community moderate annotations?
- [[flancian]] default: the site sets the default ranking function for annotations. and perhaps some annotations are community owned, wiki like?
2022-06-09
-
Attending: [[jerry michalski]], [[diego de la hera]], [[flancian]], [[chris aldrich]]
-
Inviting others
- [[flancian]] been inviting people already, but would be like to use some kind of policy?
- [[jerry michalski]] suggest to use the Mattermost to coordinate; use this space to consider together our goals and attract others like this
-
let's use the list of people in the [[doc]] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RAourQe_MKh0uWomLsS_V5ea3zm30g8paE49X56jIHs/edit
- to brainstorm on who to invite if you want to discuss a priori
- [[flancian]] invited Dan because of his interested in the space + his experience with web standards
-
[[jerry michalski]]
- [[web]] https://www.fellowshipofthelink.org/
- who wants admin? :)
-
we could also start groups in social networks, e.g. linkedin
- [[flancian]] [[mastodon]]?
-
got stuck in [[choosing an instance]]
- [[diego de la hera]] mastodon.social could be seen as the default
- (instance delegation could be interesting, web of trust like)
- http://www.unmung.com/mastoview is a tool for helping to choose Mastondon instances
- [[diego de la hera]] lack of defaults as a hindrance to adoption here, in the indieweb as well
-
[[jerry michalski]] [[barry schwartz]] https://bra.in/4jXVP2
- [[the tyranny of choice]]
- [[schelling point]]
-
[[chris aldrich]] with more choice you usually get increasing complexity
- you are given so much choice it's almost too much (in the indieweb)
- [[jerry michalski]] templates, walkthroughs add a lot of value
- [[chris aldrich]] you need either a lot of time or people motivated because they're building business
- [[peter kaminski]] introduced [[jerry michalski]] to [[obsidian]]
- on straightforward vs powerful tools
-
[[diego de la hera]] on the power of forks
- e.g. [[chris aldrich]]'s setup is something we could fork to bootstrap a new user's environment
- people have copy/pasted Chris's website already, full pages at a time :)
- [[flancian]] [[map of the fediverse]]
-
longer term goals / brainstorming / dream sharing
-
[[jerry michalski]]
-
series of projects revolving around these issues
- [[open global mind]], started 2y ago
-
[[rel8]]
-
why is it so hard to share, integrate notes -- build arguments?
- -> [[argument mapping]]?
- [[argumentation theory]]
- [[stephen toulmin]] -> [[toulmin model of argument]]
- [[the big fungus]] == https://thebigfungus.org
- interested in the scaffolding, infrastructure to share ideas
-
why is it so hard to share, integrate notes -- build arguments?
-
[[think camp]] funds startups in this space
- "profitable businesses that feed the [[commons]]"
-
read an interesting article today, conservative point of view with good arguments even though some disagreeable premises
-
how do we put this article up to scrutiny and learn from it together?
- -> [[web annotations]]?
-
[[gyuri lajos]]
- [[jerry michalski]] let's have a group sync with Gyuri?
- [[chris aldrich]] trails are related to [[vannevar bush]]'s
-
how do we put this article up to scrutiny and learn from it together?
-
wishlist for [[fotl]]: how do these parts fit together?
- how do we make it so that our notes provide maximum utility, spread through the big fungus
-
series of projects revolving around these issues
-
[[chris aldrich]] would like to focus on how to
- make it all work together
- make the systems be easy to use
- make something that is as simple to understand as facebook?
- I'd like to see [[commonplace books]] that can "talk" to each other.
-
"the [[stream]] flows by too fast"
- turning streams into gardens
- [[neil]] from the Agora has great writing on streams vs gardens, how they relate to each other - https://doubleloop.net/
-
[[jerry michalski]]
-
[[john borthwick]] at [[betaworks]] has funding for small projects [[think camp]]
-
Watch parties
-
[[connection series]]
- watch these, take notes/diagrams and share/interop
- -> [[books, paintings, movies, ideas that shaped many people's lives]]
- [[dan whaley]] youtube annotations are a side project / hobby
-
[[connection series]]
-
[[diego de la hera]]
-
web annotations were mentioned; thought of two connections
-
[[peter hagen]] -> [[lindylearn]] https://lindylearn.io/ and specifically https://annotations.lindylearn.io/new/
- social platform where you would find what other people are annotating and join the conversation
- provides a discovery layer for what others are reading and thinking about
- [[chrome]] is also tackling annotations
- [[worldbrain]], [[memex]]?
-
it seems like here we want to work more on the level of how to connect different annotation tools at a (federated?) layer
- perhaps what we need is an integration device at this layer, e.g. [[wikilinks]]
-
[[peter hagen]] -> [[lindylearn]] https://lindylearn.io/ and specifically https://annotations.lindylearn.io/new/
-
web annotations were mentioned; thought of two connections
-
Timing
-
After the event, [[Mathew Lowry]]: https://doc.anagora.org/Kz1qvywQRjq9nZ-ElXlHUg?view
Matterbridge site for group communication: https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/tips
https://collectivesensecommons.org/
Mathew Lowry mentioned [[Mysilio]]
- https://github.com/mysilio-co
- (https://mysilio.com/) a "thinking tool"/platform that uses [[Solid]] - funded by [[Foundation for the Web]]; has a social media tool and a digital garden
[[David McRaney]] (twitter) has several books:
- [[How Minds Change]] #books/wanttoread/2
- [[You're Not So Smart]] #books/wanttoread/2
- [[You are Now Less Dumb]]
2022-06-02
- Attending: [[jerry michalski]], [[diego de la hera]], [[flancian]], [[chris aldrich]]
-
Our personal history
- Diego en Córdoba
- Jerry Michalski pasos por sudamérica, ahora en Portland
- Eduardo de Buenos Aires, ahora en Suiza
- Relationships locally and globally
-
Jerry: [[open global mind]] meeting just before
- Send email to sociate@gmail.com to sign up :)
-
([[chris aldrich]] joined, introductions)
-
[[jerry michalski]]
- [[the brain]]
- [[chris]] any shares in the company?
- not anymore
- do you have backups?
-
occasionally :) but the format is a big bag of [[json]] objects, not bery interoperable
- wishlist: [[open global mind]] platform instead
-
[[diego de la hera]]
- hypothes.is user, contributor as the maintainer of the unofficial extension for firefox; working with [[wikimedia foundation]]
- met Chris through hypothes.is
-
[[chris aldrich]]
- background: biomedical and electrical engineer, been on the web since the early 90s
- [[indieweb]] / https://indieweb.org
- [[open web backup]], strong belief in owning your own domain, your own data, your own identity
- done work on genetics, but germane: spent a lot of time in the [[entertainment industry]] as it overlaps with the open web
- massive amount of data
- history, culture as intertwined with knowledge tools
- current focus on wikis and note taking tools
-
[[jerry michalski]]
-
[[jerry michalski]] wishful thinking for a design in this space
- it should allow all users to view data through their chosen tools
- sometimes you change tools as you shift what you need to do (they are good at different modes of thinking)
-
[[planes]]
-
[[multi plane camera]], [[disney history]]
- similar to layers in photoshop/gimp
- bought https://www.playnz.dev
-
[[multi plane camera]], [[disney history]]
-
[[kumu]] == https://kumu.io
- is it open source?
- [[jupyter notebooks]] are an inspiration
-
https://thebigfungus.org
- [[leaf cutting ants]]
- ([[diego de la hera]] worked with them)
- [[symbiotic relationship]] with the fungus
-
[[diego de la hera]] we mentioned a diversity of tools here:
- closed and open
- wiki like and otherwise
- ...but as long as these platforms provide this data in a documented way, do we need a central tool? wouldn't collaboration emerge even without a central tool?
- [[jerry]] +1 -- the big fungus is a metaphor for the result of this collaboration. But [[playnz]] might be an [[mvp]]/[[demo]] or just an experiment/playground for interoperability.
-
are these tools perhaps already playns?
- they might be, yes.
-
[[chris aldrich]] [[progressive enhancement]] is key
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement
- how can we take all these tools and build an architecture that supports progressive enhancement?
- we start with plain text as the base, then you can add things like markdown/html, then you add photos/media
-
[[flancian]] problems and opportunities:
- exploring hub architecture vs full graph integration
- lossiness as you interop through tools, playns
-
complexity of integrations
- [[chris aldrich]] pairwise compatibility is a nightmare
-
[[translation as a service]]
- [[pandoc]]
- [[chris aldrich]] [[paas]] == [[pandoc as a service]]
- [[markdown as lingua franca]]
-
[[jerry michalski]]
- [[mapping tools for thinking]] in [[jerry's brain]]
- also an amazing list of people
- book: [[the extended mind]]
-
interest in the [[crystallization]] of what we know together
- contributing to the same lists -> [[collective action]]
-
[[diego de la hera]] the relationship between these efforts and [[wikimedia]] projects
- [[intermingle]] / preservation of voices
- [[ward cunningham]]! [[fedwiki]]
- Ward's calls
- [[chris aldrich]] we should invite [[mark bernstein]], [[tinderbox]]
- [[fellowship of the link]] as it relates to other projects
-
[[diego de la hera]] isn't the web as a whole what we need? :)
- [[html is the lingua franca of our time]]
-
[[web mentions]]
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webmention
- https://brid.gy/
-
[[indieweb]] has examples of this working
- [[acid test]] of interoperability
- [[swat0]] https://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/SWAT0
-
search engine for tagged/linked trusted content
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonplace_book
- intimacy gradient
-
[[delicious]]
- #c19 == [[19th century]]
- [[technorati]]
-
[[lists]] we could assemble:
-
people in this space
- the above
- [[tantek Çelik]]
- "how can we build this with as little technology as possible"
- projects in this space (knowledge tools)
- recurrent calls in this space
- possible [[lingua francas]]
-
people in this space
-
[[chris aldrich]] "The world lost so much because Vannevar Bush didn't use the word commonplace book in his article As We May Think."
- how can we take open tools like [[logseq]], or semi-open like [[obsidian]], and create a reusable store
- [[blot]] == https://blot.im
- [[granary]] == https://granary.io/ for translating between silo formats as well as feed formats [[rss]], [[atom]], [[h-feed]], [[JSONfeed]], etc.
- https://bra.in/3vGWLa
- https://bra.in/7v2NRe
-
[[2022-05-20 00:20:45]] [[@flancian:matrix.org]] (link):
- the latter group is called the [[fellowship of the link]] == [[fotl]] :)
-
[[2022-06-03 22:29:23]] [[@flancian:matrix.org]] (link):
- want to join the [[fellowship of the link]]?
-
[[2022-06-25 00:43:54]] [[@flancian:matrix.org]] (link):
- btw you might be interested in [[fellowship of the link]]. next meetup is next Thursday at 11AM Pacific / 18 UTC
⭕ wormhole to [[building bridges]] built by an Agora user
⭕ wormhole to [[fotl]] built by an Agora user
⭕ wormhole to [[sje]] built by an Agora user
Loading context... (requires JavaScript)
📖 stoas (collaborative spaces) for [[fellowship of the link]]
- Open document (Hedgedoc) at https://doc.anagora.org/fellowship-of-the-link
- Video call (Jitsi) at https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
🔎 full text search for [[fellowship of the link]]